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The Theravada tradition has
a long history of inequality between the sexes, even within the realm
of spiritual understanding. In fact, it is my understanding that women
cannot attain full ordination in your tradition.
Bhante Gunaratana: That is an adjustment that I would like to propose.
We‘ve had a problem in introducing fully ordained nuns into the order.
It has become a very big controversy because many women would like to
enter the Theravada nuns‘ order, and receive full ordination, but that
has not been possible so far.
If nuns' full ordination were reestablished,
would you also support full equality between men and women?
Bhante Gunaratana: I support it. I support it. Fully ordained nuns
should be able to do the same thing as fully ordained monks. That‘s
the kind of equality I support. The Buddha introduced extra rules for
women, because without giving some concessions, without introducing
some rules, there would have been an enormous upheaval—opposition coming
from other monks as well as laypeople. To silence them, he introduced
these regulations. But in modern society these things can be modified.
Do you think that the changes that you recommend
can be adapted in Asia?
Bhante Gunaratana: My strong hunch is that in Asia full ordination
will never happen because the tradition, the habit, is so strong that
they don‘t want to change it. The only possibility exists in societies
like this one, where Buddhism is new. Once it is established here, then,
perhaps, slowly it can be introduced to Asian Buddhist communities.
What are the things that you think should not
be adjusted, that you think must not change?
Bhante Gunaratana: Dharma can be translated into simple, modern,
current language. But the meaning should not be changed to suit people’s
requirements. Some aspects of the rituals can change but, for instance,
wearing robes must not change. Even in the time of the Buddha, civilian
dress was quite different from monks’ robes. And it is the same today.
This robe protects us. As human beings we are not perfect. And when
we have the robe, it reminds us of our place, and stops us from getting
into wrong situations, wrongdoing.
What most distinguishes the Theravada tradition
from the other great vehicles of Buddhism?
Bhante Gunaratana: The Theravada tradition tries to maintain the
Buddhism presented in the Pali texts. It emphasizes morality, concentration,
and wisdom practice as close to the Buddha‘s own teaching as possible,
without interpreting them, distorting them, or translating them into
different ideas. As Theravada Buddhists, we are trying to preserve the
Pali language and use it in our dharma sermons, in our daily devotional
services.
And the benefit is maintaining the language
of the Buddha?
Bhante Gunaratana: Yes. The benefit is that when you have any doubt
about the teaching, any gray area, you can always go to Pali. And always
you keep Pali as your reference language, in order to clarify certain
dharma terms. If you do not have that kind of background, or that kind
of reference, you have to rely on translations. If the translator has
made a mistake, it is carried on generation after generation. That is
what has happened to some other branches of Buddhism. Because they don‘t
study the original language, they have to read the third, fourth, fifth,
sixth interpretations, or translations, and sometimes they lose track
of the original teaching. Original teaching is preserved in the Pali
tradition. No question about it.
Do you think that some Westerners misunderstand
Theravada Buddhism because of the absence of an actual Bodhisattva Vow?
Bhante Gunaratana: Exactly. Although Theravada Buddhists don‘t have
any special Bodhisattva Vow, in practice it is almost impossible to
ignore helping others. And you know, this idea of helping others is
not only Buddhist. Is there anything Buddhist in generosity? You don‘t
even have to be a human being to practice generosity. You might have
seen animals sharing their food with other animals. To make this kind
of distinction between Mahayana and Theravada is not a very practical,
realistic way of seeing things. The challenge is making people understand
the basic teachings, like selflessness, soulessness, and non-believing
in a creator God. The first aspect, you know, impermanence, is really
easy. If you read any book on physics, chemistry, or science, you will
learn all about impermanence. But selflessness and not believing in
a creator-God, these two are extremely difficult to teach.
Can a society as a whole become a little less
egotistical, or is it only a matter of individual practice?
Bhante Gunaratana: It is individual practice, actually. Even when
the Buddha attained enlightenment, greed, hatred, and delusion were
not less than they are today. His sole purpose in attaining enlightenment
was to serve the world. But as soon as he attained enlightenment, he
became so disappointed. He thought, "How can I teach this dharma
to these people? They are so full of ignorance, greed, hatred, jealousy,
fear, tension, worry, and lust—how can they understand this?" But
he started teaching. And he was never able to eliminate all the suffering
in the human world. Never. He eliminated the suffering of certain people,
but compared to the number of people in the world, the number of people
he helped to attain enlightenment is insignificant. Now, with more population,
more desirous things produced by technological advancement, more things
to promote your desire, promote your greed, selfishness, fear, tension,
worry, it is therefore actually more difficult to practice pure dharma.
And this is not just the problem of the dharma, of the teaching of the
Buddha. This is the problem of all religions. Religious people are trying,
as much they can, in their own limited capacities. At the same time,
in the material world, other people are trying to promote their own
productions, increase people‘s greed. There are more televisions, more
computers, more this, more that. So you have to compete with this.
Do you have a goal for yourself?
Bhante Gunaratana: I say that Buddhism is like a tree. A tree has
its canopy, leaves, flowers, you know, little branches, and the trunk,
and the bark, and softwood and hardwood, the roots, and so forth. And
we should want the hardwood, the pit, of the dharma, just like wanting
the pit of a tree. Everything else can conceal the truth. There are
so many things around the true dharma. And people can easily get deluded,
confused, misled by those very many, many varieties of things. The Buddha
said very clearly, "Until artificial gold appears in the market,
pure gold shines. As soon as the artificial gold appears in the market,
nobody knows which is pure gold, and which is artificial." So I
want to show people this pure gold, so that they cannot be deluded by
everything that glitters. That is my purpose.
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